[All] Fw: Canadian Ban needed on 13L Toilets
Robert Milligan
mill at continuum.org
Mon Jan 4 18:41:42 EST 2010
Hi Susan,
Thanks for your input, but might I suggest that where there is a will,
there often will be a way. Us shit disturbers particularly have to
willing tackle the problem of shit itself -- and even be brave enough
to tell it like it is, i,e. we have to consider
ourselves 'shit/urine'-talkers/'problem solvers', and thus better deal
with the reality here.
We all know that the current municipal and individual waste disposal
systems are themselves very problematic to public health and the
environment. Does this not necessitate the re-invention of human waste
disposal processes and their effective management procedures --
especially in the "modern" World?
More research has to be done in individual/non-municipal septic
systems to re-invent/re-design them. For example, GREN could spearhead
this type of research at the UofW. (Maybe Susan B could lead a GREN
committee on this important problem).
I guess Susan you didn't mention the "clivus multrum" style example at
the Y's Paradise Lake location -- which works very well apparently --
is because you didn't see that project when you have been there or ??
Very little work is required and
a beautiful product is created. No smell is apparent at the output end
and the shit is well removed from the shiter. The major drawback is
the space required in the basement, I also gave a "hybrid" reference,
Did you not read these references?
The Multoa example you cited is too demanding of smelly work with
fresh shit always close to you. This is not an acceptable type of
solution for status conscious households! In other words, that
solution is full of **** ! A cottage maybe.
Your rejectors probably used this style -- this is a very important
research detail!
http://www.ecoethic.ca/products_wl.html
Let's all be less squeamish and more creative -- and quit shoving the
shit in the (water) closet!.
Best wishes to all,
Robert
"These are obstacles that can be overcome for some of the population,
over time, but not all the population." Just as some people require
some assistance when they are ill, perhaps future disease prevention
measures will entail private well/'septic system' assistance -- but
let's redesign to minimize this need.
On 4-Jan-10, at 12:29 PM, Susan H. Bryant wrote:
> Hi toilet-talkers-
>
> Here’s my cent-worth. In my training for the Well Aware program, I
> was informed that there’s only one really reliable commercially
> available composting toilet—the Swedish-built Mulltoa (you can find
> it on line). Apparently, Sweden banned septic systems about 20 years
> ago, so it’s no surprise that they lead in this technology. I can’t
> verify or test the claim about Mulltoa. However, the two people I
> know who did install composting toilets (I don’t know what kind)
> have had them replaced with conventional. Too many problems (for
> them, at least). I guess the point is that you have to do your
> research and know what to expect when it comes to composting toilets.
>
> Secondly, just to add to the conversation about home-based waste
> treatment. One of the issues about some great new technologies for
> waste (toilets, grey water recycling, etc.) is that many require
> knowledge, interest, regular maintenance on the part of the
> homeowner to be safe and effective. The problem is that lots of
> people just don’t have that interest---as I see in my work visits to
> rural properties with wells and septic systems. People are running
> their own waste treatment systems and water supply systems---often
> with little astonishingly little knowledge or interest in these
> systems and the environmental/health consequences of their practices
> and attitudes. So I guess I can understand some of the hesitancy
> about wholesale endorsement of private waste treatment systems on
> the part of gov’t, regulators, home inspectors, etc. These are
> obstacles that can be overcome for some of the population, over
> time, but not all the population.
>
> I don’t mean to be a wet blanket---just practical!
>
> Susan
>
> From: all-bounces at gren.ca [mailto:all-bounces at gren.ca] On Behalf Of
> Robert Milligan
> Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:10 AM
> To: Louisette Lanteigne; Randy B. McLean; Sharon Woodley
> Cc: * GREN
> Subject: Re: [All] Fw: Canadian Ban needed on 13L Toilets
>
> Lulu, Randy & Sharon,
>
> "Modern" sewage treatment systems are a problem in so many ways
> (although they do produce lots of money for civil & environmental
> engineering consulting firms):
> I. Use lots of increasingly scarce and not cost-free drinking water;
> 2. Pollutes water courses -- and aquifers [thanks Randy] -- with
> pathogenic microbes, intestinal parasites, toxic chlorine
> byproducts, Rx products, toxic industrial chemicals, BOD, COD, etc.;
> 3. Does same to soil (& water courses again) when sludge is spread
> on farmland;
> 4. Discharge methane, hydrogen sulphide, etc. as gases into nearby
> communities and the global atmosphere;
> 5. Incur great costs in building, operating & maintaining;
> 6. Dis-values, dilutes & pollutes 2 nutrient-rich human resources --
> faeces & urine -- instead of (say) the Federation of Canadian
> Municipalities "incentizing" universities & inventors to develop
> methane/hydrogen/humus generators for homes & businesses -- we could
> call them "distributed waste-processing fuel generators". (For
> hundreds of years Chinese villagers have been pooping through their
> kitchen floor to produce methane for their cook stove & humus for
> their crops. The likely stigma associated with faeces &/or urine
> research is probably behind (a pun?) the lack of any serious
> research at the universities. Although a courageous woman
> engineering professor at the Ohio University in Athens (I attended
> an environmental fair there 2 years ago) recently developed &
> patented a process to produce hydrogen from urine -- urine being a
> less negative waste product with some health benefits from diluted
> topical application (e. g. peeing in the shower to combat foot
> fungus [thanks Randy]) to tonic health benefits from drinking it (I
> had a book on this but chose other tonics instead). A caution:
> methane & hydrogen are explosive; some of the very toxic hydrogen
> sulphide gas (or sewer gas) may be produced with the methane.
> Generally we are dealing with a very complex situation in developing
> anaerobic humus toilets -- which remain but a dream in modern
> nations (as far as I know [sorry Sharon]). However, these difficult
> times may create the necessary readiness. In the meantime we do have
> the aerobic humus or composting toilet which processes the waste
> faster and (I think) produces CO2 as a waste gas which could be bio-
> sequestered in a solar greenhouse (underground or geodesic or ?).
> The 2 basic designs for an aerobic humus or composting toilet would
> be one with a small electrical stirring chamber on the floor
> underneath the toilet and the other a "clivus multrum" design (http://www.clivus.com/
> ) which has a large gravity fed chamber in the basement (see the
> latter type in operation at YMCA's environmental learning center at
> Paradise Lake -- John & Susan B have also been there). Some people
> add earthworms to the latter to improve the humus quality & speed
> decomposition. Maybe check these out too:
> 1) http://home.howstuffworks.com/home-improvement/energy-efficiency/composting-toilet.htm
> 2) http://www.hundertwasser.at/english/oeuvre/eco/oeko_humustoilette.php
> 3) http://www.compostingtoilet.org/ (new design)
> 4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composting_toilet
> Generally Google "humus toilet" OR "composting toilet". (Also
> "underground solar
> greenhouse" OR "geodesic solar greenhouse")
>
>
> Federal agencies need to be lobbied to develop standards in these
> creatively innovative areas!
>
> Cheers,
> Robert
>
>
>
> On 3-Jan-10, at 6:39 PM, Sharon Woodley wrote:
>
>
> I've been wanting to change my toilets for ages now - I'm not even
> sure if they are 13L but probably - and I will go straight to the
> anaerobic humus toilets if I can - Robert where can I get more info
> on those?
> Sharon Woodley
>
> --- On Sun, 1/3/10, Randy B. McLean <randybmclean at rogers.com> wrote:
>
> From: Randy B. McLean <randybmclean at rogers.com>
> Subject: Re: [All] Fw: Canadian Ban needed on 13L Toilets
> To: "Robert Milligan" <mill at continuum.org>, "Louisette Lanteigne" <butterflybluelu at rogers.com
> >
> Cc: all at gren.ca
> Received: Sunday, January 3, 2010, 4:34 AM
> Lu and Robert:
>
> A 13 litre toilet is a total waste unless you weigh 800 lbs and eat
> 50 lbs of food a day. I have 13 litre toilets but am not on any
> system (private well and septic). The toilets do not use anywhere
> near 13 litres more like half that and are fully adjustable. They
> are a good design and only need one flush no matter who uses them.
> I know this is not a defence for my flamboyancy but more of a
> statement to promote common sense.
>
> Jet toilets are not bad. A lot of none North Americans like bidets
> and they use more water and little toilet paper.
>
> Transporting waste with water has been a fundamental paradox of the
> industrial age. Turns out we are just like bacteria after all.
>
> What is worse is that most infrastructures in most cities have
> leaking sewers. Those below ground water elevation infiltrate
> millions of gallons per day and to repair is very expensive and not
> perfect or permanent. Construction of new subdivisions are of poor
> quality and poorly inspected. I have been in new installs that have
> yet to be hooked into the system and they are flowing 1/4 pipe. All
> ground water infiltration. Some municipalities are so anal and
> political or afraid to tell people to disconnect their sump pumps
> and down pipes from the sanitary that they actually design in
> overcapacity at the WPCP. The nutrient load and the cold water
> adversely affect the zoogleal bacteria to such a point that the
> biomass is now full of lower species of fungi and they have a nasty
> by-product that produces a polysaccharide and foam. Frozen brown
> foam laying all over a plant then thawing to rot and stink is the
> norm. Now to combat the stink they have elaborate deodourizers
> spaying a mercaptan around the perimeter of the plant. (bandaid)
>
> Banning 13 litre toilets is smoke and mirrors. It will be used to
> complicate the issue and divert the real problem. Inflow and
> infiltration I/I (eye eye) is the major problem but it cannot be
> corrected if municipalities continue to allow sewers to be built in
> shifiting beds. Poorly prepared and full of ground water. Europe
> and the States are going back to smaller areas collecting smaller
> volumes and treating the waste at a smaller plant which is local..
> No more super plants treating waste water that travels 100 miles to
> be treated. The giant sewer running from the Duffins Creek plant
> in Whitby north to Sutton is cracked and sitting beneath the water
> table; mostly gravel bed. It is leaking after 30 years of service
> and cannot be fixed but only left to further decay. This thing is a
> giant tile bed and will drain the morains along its route, mixed
> with dilute waste to arrive for treatment barely capable to support
> bacterial growth. It will have to be replaced. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
> $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
>
> Municipalities know they have a problem and know it is the
> collection system. They spend millions annually studying the
> problem and collecting recommendations to fix but the cost of the
> jobs make the task un-reachable especially during these times. The
> cities which have built sewage collection systems in the water table
> now have a giant drainage tile system and sewage collection system
> hopefully all going to one spot but I know better. They can shut
> off some of the inflow or intentional illegal hook ups and that
> takes care of the problem of flash flows when it rains. Keeping the
> ground water out? that is an entire different headache.
>
> 2 cent Randy
>
> ps to not get rid of waste immediatley after it has left the body is
> dangerous, however I believe urinating while showering keeps your
> feet free from fungal infection.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Robert Milligan
> To: Louisette Lanteigne
> Cc: all at gren..ca
> Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 2:11 AM
> Subject: Re: [All] Fw: Canadian Ban needed on 13L Toilets
>
> Hi Lulu,
>
> I agree as a first step, but then ban the 6L, then the 4.8, ending
> up with energy (methane & hydrogen) & humus producing
> anaerobic humus toilets -- and do it all sooner rather than later.
> In letter to the Winnipeg Free Press, a lady said (in partial
> support), " In the case of a standard toilet, it is a waste of
> resources to flush away feces with drinking water and then spend
> millions of dollars on a sewage system, then separate them in a
> sewage treatment plant." http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/letters_to_the_editor/null-39356472.html
>
> Best Wishes & Happy New Year,
> Robert
>
>
> On 3-Jan-10, at 12:43 AM, Louisette Lanteigne wrote:
>
>
> Hi folks
>
> As I was digging around the economics of the Lake Erie Pipeline when
> I stumbled across some interesting toilet info. Now I'm requesting a
> national ban on 13 L toilets. The note is below if your curious.
>
> Lulu :0)
>
> --- On Sun, 1/3/10, Louisette Lanteigne <butterflybluelu at rogers.com>
> wrote:
>
> From: Louisette Lanteigne <butterflybluelu at rogers.com>
> Subject: Canadian Ban needed on 13L Toilets
> To: braidp1 at parl.gc..ca, mintc at tc.gc.ca, scarpf at parl.gc.ca, Prentice.J at parl.gc.ca
> ,DucepG at parl.gc.ca, LaytoJ at parl.gc.ca
> Date: Sunday, January 3, 2010, 12:34 AM
> The US has banned the use of 13 litre toilets since 1994 and the
> state of California is phasing out 6L toilets in favour of high
> efficiency toilets that use 4.8 litres or less but in Canada, we
> still allow for the sale of the 13 litre toilets and it puts a heavy
> burden upon municipalities and Canadian Taxpayers.
>
> According to a report by the Canadian Water and Wastewater
> Association, in 2005 it is estimated that one in four toilets
> installed in Canada were the wasteful 13L toilets. Those "new"
> toilets resulted in 8690 megalitres of water being wasted
> needlessly, enough to fill 3476 Olympic Sized Pools. To view this
> report, visit here:
> http://www.cwwa.ca/pdf_files/13L%20Toilets%20Sales%20Report.pdf
>
> Consider that water-efficient toilets use about 60 percent less
> water than the old style 13-litre toilets and that, on average,
> every Canadian flushes over 80 litres of water down the toilet each
> day. Mandating efficient six-litre toilets would result, over time,
> in a water savings well in excess 500-billion litres a year.
>
> Across Ontario there are numerous rebate programs in place to
> replace older model toilets but it would be far more cost effective
> to simply ban the sale of them. Most of these units are produced in
> the US where they can't lawfully use them. It would not
> significantly impact Canadian industries to change the laws.
>
> The ban on 13 litre toilets would save municipalities money on
> energy costs. According to a report produced by Power Application
> Group on behalf of the Independent Energy System Operator (IESO),
> water treatment and pumping and sewage treatment makes up 33% of
> municipal electricity usage. To view the report visit here:
>
> http://www.ieso.ca/imoweb/pubs/bi/Ontario_Municipalities-An_Electricity_Profile_January2008.pdf
>
> A ban on 13 Litre toilets would help to offset the need for
> municipalities to seek "new" water sources.The reduced energy costs
> for municipalities across the country would be significant and it
> would help to reduce carbon emissions and facilitate cost savings
> for Canadian consumers. It's a win win situation.
>
> Thank you kindly for your time.
>
> Louisette Lanteigne
> 700 Star Flower Ave.
> Waterloo Ontario
> N2V 2L2
> 519-885-7619
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