<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi Susan,<div><br></div><div>Thanks for your input, but might I suggest that where there is a will, there often will be a way. Us shit disturbers particularly have to willing tackle the problem of shit itself -- and even be brave enough to tell it like it is, i,e. we have to consider</div><div>ourselves 'shit/urine'-talkers/'problem solvers', and thus better deal with the reality here.</div><div><br></div><div>We all know that the current municipal and individual waste disposal systems are themselves very problematic to public health and the environment. Does this not necessitate the re-invention of human waste disposal processes and their effective management procedures -- especially in the "modern" World?</div><div><br></div><div>More research has to be done in individual/non-municipal septic systems to re-invent/re-design them. For example, GREN could spearhead this type of research at the UofW. (Maybe Susan B could lead a GREN committee on this important problem).</div><div><br></div><div>I guess Susan you didn't mention the "clivus multrum" style example at the Y's Paradise Lake location -- which works very well apparently -- is because you didn't see that project when you have been there or ?? Very little work is required and</div><div>a beautiful product is created. No smell is apparent at the output end and the shit is well removed from the shiter. The major drawback is the space required in the basement, I also gave a "hybrid" reference, Did you not read these references? </div><div><br></div><div>The Multoa example you cited is too demanding of smelly work with fresh shit always close to you. This is not an acceptable type of solution for status conscious households! In other words, that solution is full of **** ! A cottage maybe.</div><div>Your rejectors probably used this style -- this is a very important research detail!</div><div><a href="http://www.ecoethic.ca/products_wl.html">http://www.ecoethic.ca/products_wl.html</a></div><div><br></div><div>Let's all be less squeamish and more creative -- and quit shoving the shit in the (water) closet!. </div><div><br></div><div>Best wishes to all,</div><div>Robert</div><div><br></div><div>"<span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Arial; font-size: 16px; ">These are obstacles that can be overcome for some of the population, over time, but not all the population.<span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; ">" Just as some people require some assistance when they are ill, perhaps future disease prevention</span></span></div><div>measures will entail private well/'septic system' assistance -- but let's redesign to minimize this need.</div><div><div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>On 4-Jan-10, at 12:29 PM, Susan H. Bryant wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div class="Section1"><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Hi toilet-talkers-<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Here’s my cent-worth. In my training for the Well Aware program, I was informed that there’s only one really reliable commercially available composting toilet—the Swedish-built Mulltoa (you can find it on line). Apparently, Sweden banned septic systems about 20 years ago, so it’s no surprise that they lead in this technology. I can’t verify or test the claim about Mulltoa. However, the two people I know who did install composting toilets (I don’t know what kind) have had them replaced with conventional. Too many problems (for them, at least). I guess the point is that you have to do your research and know what to expect when it comes to composting toilets.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Secondly, just to add to the conversation about home-based waste treatment. One of the issues about some great new technologies for waste (toilets, grey water recycling, etc.) is that many require knowledge, interest, regular maintenance on the part of the homeowner to be safe and effective. The problem is that lots of people just don’t have that interest---as I see in my work visits to rural properties with wells and septic systems. People are running their own waste treatment systems and water supply systems---often with little astonishingly little knowledge or interest in these systems and the environmental/health consequences of their practices and attitudes. So I guess I can understand some of the hesitancy about wholesale endorsement of private waste treatment systems on the part of gov’t, regulators, home inspectors, etc. These are obstacles that can be overcome for some of the population, over time, but not all the population.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">I don’t mean to be a wet blanket---just practical!<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Susan <o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div><div style="border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 0in; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:all-bounces@gren.ca" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">all-bounces@gren.ca</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:all-bounces@gren.ca" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mailto:all-bounces@gren.ca</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Robert Milligan<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, January 04, 2010 1:10 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Louisette Lanteigne; Randy B. McLean; Sharon Woodley<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>* GREN<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [All] Fw: Canadian Ban needed on 13L Toilets<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Lulu, Randy & Sharon,<o:p></o:p></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">"Modern" sewage treatment systems are a problem in so many ways (although they do produce lots of money for civil & environmental engineering consulting firms):<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">I. Use lots of increasingly scarce and not cost-free drinking water;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">2. Pollutes water courses -- and aquifers [thanks Randy] -- with pathogenic microbes, intestinal parasites, toxic chlorine byproducts, Rx products, toxic industrial chemicals, BOD, COD, etc.;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">3. Does same to soil (& water courses again) when sludge is spread on farmland;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">4. Discharge methane, hydrogen sulphide, etc. as gases into nearby communities and the global atmosphere;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">5. Incur great costs in building, operating & maintaining;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">6. Dis-values, dilutes & pollutes 2 nutrient-rich human resources -- faeces & urine -- instead of (say) the Federation of Canadian Municipalities "incentizing" universities & inventors to develop methane/hydrogen/humus generators for homes & businesses -- we could call them "distributed waste-processing fuel generators". (For hundreds of years Chinese villagers have been pooping through their kitchen floor to produce methane for their cook stove & humus for their crops. The likely stigma associated with faeces &/or urine research is probably behind (a pun?) the lack of any serious research at the universities. Although a courageous woman engineering professor at the Ohio University in Athens (I attended an environmental fair there 2 years ago) recently developed & patented a process to produce hydrogen from urine -- urine being a less negative waste product with some health benefits from diluted topical application (e. g. peeing in the shower to combat foot fungus [thanks Randy]) to tonic health benefits from drinking it (I had a book on this but chose other tonics instead).<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>A caution</b>: methane & hydrogen are explosive; some of the very toxic hydrogen sulphide gas (or sewer gas) may be produced with the methane. Generally we are dealing with a very complex situation in developing anaerobic humus toilets -- which remain but a dream in modern nations (as far as I know [sorry Sharon]). However, these difficult times may create the necessary readiness. In the meantime we do have the aerobic humus or composting toilet which processes the waste faster and (I think) produces CO2 as a waste gas which could be bio-sequestered in a solar greenhouse (underground or geodesic or ?). The<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>2 basic designs for an aerobic humus or composting toilet</b> would be one with a small electrical stirring chamber on the floor underneath the toilet and the other a <b>"clivus multrum" design (<a href="http://www.clivus.com/" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.clivus.com/</a>)</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>which has a large gravity fed chamber in the basement (see the latter type in operation at YMCA's environmental learning center at Paradise Lake -- John & Susan B have also been there). Some people add earthworms to the latter to improve the humus quality & speed decomposition. Maybe check these out too:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">1) <a href="http://home.howstuffworks.com/home-improvement/energy-efficiency/composting-toilet.htm" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://home.howstuffworks.com/home-improvement/energy-efficiency/composting-toilet.htm</a><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">2)<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.hundertwasser.at/english/oeuvre/eco/oeko_humustoilette.php" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.hundertwasser.at/english/oeuvre/eco/oeko_humustoilette.php</a><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">3) <a href="http://www.compostingtoilet.org/" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.compostingtoilet.org/</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(new design)<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">4) <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composting_toilet" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composting_toilet</a><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Generally Google "humus toilet" OR "composting toilet". (Also "underground solar <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">greenhouse" OR "geodesic solar greenhouse") <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 13pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "><br><br></span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size: 13pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Federal agencies need to be lobbied to develop standards in these</span></span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size: 13pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">creatively innovative areas!</span></span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Robert<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On 3-Jan-10, at 6:39 PM, Sharon Woodley wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tbody><tr><td valign="top" style="padding-top: 0in; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 0in; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">I've been wanting to change my toilets for ages now - I'm not even sure if they are 13L but probably - and I will go straight to the anaerobic humus toilets if I can - Robert where can I get more info on those?<o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Sharon Woodley<br><br>--- On<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>Sun, 1/3/10, Randy B. McLean<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i><<a href="mailto:randybmclean@rogers.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">randybmclean@rogers.com</a>></i></b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br>From: Randy B. McLean <<a href="mailto:randybmclean@rogers.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">randybmclean@rogers.com</a>><br>Subject: Re: [All] Fw: Canadian Ban needed on 13L Toilets<br>To: "Robert Milligan" <<a href="mailto:mill@continuum.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mill@continuum.org</a>>, "Louisette Lanteigne" <<a href="mailto:butterflybluelu@rogers.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">butterflybluelu@rogers.com</a>><br>Cc:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:all@gren.ca" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">all@gren.ca</a><br>Received: Sunday, January 3, 2010, 4:34 AM<o:p></o:p></div><div id="yiv897922815"><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Lu and Robert:</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">A 13 litre toilet is a total waste unless you weigh 800 lbs and eat 50 lbs of food a day. I have 13 litre toilets but am not on any system (private well and septic). The toilets do not use anywhere near 13 litres more like half that and are fully adjustable. They are a good design and only need one flush no matter who uses them. I know this is not a defence for my flamboyancy but more of a statement to promote common sense.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Jet toilets are not bad. A lot of none North Americans like bidets and they use more water and little toilet paper.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Transporting waste with water has been a fundamental paradox of the industrial age. Turns out we are just like bacteria after all.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">What is worse is that most infrastructures in most cities have leaking sewers. Those below ground water elevation infiltrate millions of gallons per day and to repair is very expensive and not perfect or permanent. Construction of new subdivisions are of poor quality and poorly inspected. I have been in new installs that have yet to be hooked into the system and they are flowing 1/4 pipe. All ground water infiltration. Some municipalities are so anal and political or afraid to tell people to disconnect their sump pumps and down pipes from the sanitary that they actually design in overcapacity at the WPCP. The nutrient load and the cold water adversely affect the zoogleal bacteria to such a point that the biomass is now full of lower species of fungi and they have a nasty by-product that produces a polysaccharide and foam. Frozen brown foam laying all over a plant then thawing to rot and stink is the norm. Now to combat the stink they have elaborate deodourizers spaying a mercaptan around the perimeter of the plant. (bandaid)</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Banning 13 litre toilets is smoke and mirrors. It will be used to complicate the issue and divert the real problem. Inflow and infiltration I/I (eye eye) is the major problem but it cannot be corrected if municipalities continue to allow sewers to be built in shifiting beds. Poorly prepared and full of ground water. Europe and the States are going back to smaller areas collecting smaller volumes and treating the waste at a smaller plant which is local.. No more super plants treating waste water that travels 100 miles to be treated. The giant sewer running from the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Duffins Creek plant in Whitby north to Sutton is cracked and sitting beneath the water table; mostly gravel bed. It is leaking after 30 years of service and cannot be fixed but only left to further decay. This thing is a giant tile bed and will drain the morains along its route, mixed with dilute waste to arrive for treatment barely capable to support bacterial growth. It will have to be replaced. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Municipalities know they have a problem and know it is the collection system. They spend millions annually studying the problem and collecting recommendations to fix but the cost of the jobs make the task un-reachable especially during these times. The cities which have built sewage collection systems in the water table now have a giant drainage tile system and sewage collection system hopefully all going to one spot but I know better. They can shut off some of the inflow or intentional illegal hook ups and that takes care of the problem of flash flows when it rains. Keeping the ground water out? that is an entire different headache.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">2 cent Randy</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">ps to not get rid of waste immediatley after it has left the body is dangerous, however I believe urinating while showering keeps your feet free from fungal infection.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><blockquote style="border-top-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: black; border-left-width: 1.5pt; padding-top: 0in; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 4pt; margin-left: 3.75pt; margin-top: 5pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">----- Original Message -----<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="background-image: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial; background-color: rgb(228, 228, 228); margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "><a href="/mc/compose?to=mill@continuum.org" target="_blank" title="mill@continuum.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">Robert Milligan</a><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">To:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "><a href="/mc/compose?to=butterflybluelu@rogers.com" target="_blank" title="butterflybluelu@rogers.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">Louisette Lanteigne</a><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Cc:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "><a href="/mc/compose?to=all@gren.ca" target="_blank" title="all@gren.ca" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">all@gren..ca</a><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Sent:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Sunday, January 03, 2010 2:11 AM<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Subject:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Re: [All] Fw: Canadian Ban needed on 13L Toilets<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Hi Lulu,<o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">I agree as a first step, but then ban the 6L, then the 4.8, ending up with energy (methane & hydrogen) & humus producing<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">anaerobic humus toilets -- and do it all sooner rather than later. In letter to the Winnipeg Free Press, a lady said (in partial support), "<span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "> In the case of a standard toilet, it is a waste of resources to flush away feces with drinking water and then spend millions of dollars on a sewage system, then separate them in a sewage treatment plant.</span></span><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; ">" <a href="http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/letters_to_the_editor/null-39356472.html" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/letters_to_the_editor/null-39356472.html</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Best Wishes & Happy New Year,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Robert<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On 3-Jan-10, at 12:43 AM, Louisette Lanteigne wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tbody><tr><td valign="top" style="padding-top: 0in; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 0in; "><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Hi folks<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">As I was digging around the economics of the Lake Erie Pipeline when I stumbled across some interesting toilet info. Now I'm requesting a national ban on 13 L toilets. The note is below if your curious.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Lulu :0)<br><br>--- On<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>Sun, 1/3/10, Louisette Lanteigne<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i><<a href="/mc/compose?to=butterflybluelu@rogers.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">butterflybluelu@rogers.com</a>></i></b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><blockquote style="border-top-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(16, 16, 255); border-left-width: 1.5pt; padding-top: 0in; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 4pt; margin-left: 3.75pt; margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br>From: Louisette Lanteigne <<a href="/mc/compose?to=butterflybluelu@rogers.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">butterflybluelu@rogers.com</a>><br>Subject: Canadian Ban needed on 13L Toilets<br>To:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="/mc/compose?to=braidp1@parl.gc.ca" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">braidp1@parl.gc..ca</a>,<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="/mc/compose?to=mintc@tc.gc.ca" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mintc@tc.gc.ca</a>,<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="/mc/compose?to=scarpf@parl.gc.ca" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">scarpf@parl.gc.ca</a>,<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="/mc/compose?to=Prentice.J@parl.gc.ca" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">Prentice.J@parl.gc.ca</a>,<a href="/mc/compose?to=DucepG@parl.gc.ca" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">DucepG@parl.gc.ca</a>,<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="/mc/compose?to=LaytoJ@parl.gc.ca" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">LaytoJ@parl.gc.ca</a><br>Date: Sunday, January 3, 2010, 12:34 AM<o:p></o:p></div><div id="yiv675297625"><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tbody><tr><td valign="top" style="padding-top: 0in; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 0in; "><div id="yiv258215542"><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">The US has banned the use of 13 litre toilets since 1994 and the state of California is phasing out 6L toilets in favour of high efficiency toilets that use 4.8 litres or less but in Canada, we still allow for the sale of the 13 litre toilets and it puts a heavy burden upon municipalities and Canadian Taxpayers.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">According to a report by the Canadian Water and Wastewater Association, in 2005 it is estimated that one in four toilets installed in Canada were the wasteful 13L toilets. Those "new" toilets resulted in 8690 megalitres of water being wasted needlessly, enough to fill 3476 Olympic Sized Pools. To view this report, visit here:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><a href="http://www.cwwa.ca/pdf_files/13L%20Toilets%20Sales%20Report.pdf" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.cwwa.ca/pdf_files/13L%20Toilets%20Sales%20Report.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Consider that water-efficient toilets use about 60 percent less water than the old style 13-litre toilets and that, on average, every Canadian flushes over 80 litres of water down the toilet each day. Mandating efficient six-litre toilets would result, over time, in a water savings well in excess 500-billion litres a year.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Across Ontario there are numerous rebate programs in place to replace older model toilets but it would be far more cost effective to simply ban the sale of them. Most of these units are produced in the US where they can't lawfully use them. It would not significantly impact Canadian industries to change the laws.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">The ban on 13 litre toilets would save municipalities money on energy costs. According to a report produced by Power Application Group on behalf of the Independent Energy System Operator (IESO), water treatment and pumping and sewage treatment makes up 33% of municipal electricity usage. To view the report visit here:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><a href="http://www.ieso.ca/imoweb/pubs/bi/Ontario_Municipalities-An_Electricity_Profile_January2008.pdf" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.ieso.ca/imoweb/pubs/bi/Ontario_Municipalities-An_Electricity_Profile_January2008.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">A ban on 13 Litre toilets would help to offset the need for municipalities to seek "new" water sources.The reduced energy costs for municipalities across the country would be significant and it would help to reduce carbon emissions and facilitate cost savings for Canadian consumers. It's a win win situation.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Thank you kindly for your time.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Louisette Lanteigne<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">700 Star Flower Ave.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Waterloo Ontario<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">N2V 2L2<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">519-885-7619<o:p></o:p></div></div></div></td></tr></tbody></table></div></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></table><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">_______________________________________________<br>All mailing list<br><a href="/mc/compose?to=All@gren.ca" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">All@gren.ca</a><br><a href="http://gren.ca/mailman/listinfo/all_gren.ca" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://gren.ca/mailman/listinfo/all_gren.ca</a><o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align: center; margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><hr size="2" width="100%" align="center"></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">_______________________________________________<br>All mailing list<br><a href="mailto:All@gren.ca" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">All@gren.ca</a><br><a href="http://gren.ca/mailman/listinfo/all_gren.ca" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://gren.ca/mailman/listinfo/all_gren.ca</a><o:p></o:p></div></blockquote></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----<o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">_______________________________________________<br>All mailing list<br><a href="/mc/compose?to=All@gren.ca" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">All@gren.ca</a><br><a href="http://gren.ca/mailman/listinfo/all_gren.ca" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; 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