[All] Fwd: Re: CHANGE OF VENUE GREN MEETING -Regional WaterlooLight Rail Transit - January 18

Wed Jan 12 15:45:08 EST 2011

Thank you Robert for being so adamant about the need to change the design if it goes forward   and Yes   it will be $1 Billion +++      Just the few short blocks on King St. downtown this summer went from $7.5 million  to well over $10 million  with Kit taxpayers footing the bill for the extra  $2.5 to $3 Million ++    Once you start digging and messing around with the existing aged and /or newer infrastucture  all sorts of problems arise.  
What kind of outside experts are on the bandwagon here??   As you know I am not in favour of the LRT at this stage and design and this point in time.  The horrendous burden for the tax payers now and in the future  may very well be our undoing.  We have so little money in the kitty that we've been assessed  Storm Water Management Fees   that are not covered in taxes. ...and it will continue to overburden the young folks coming up if it can't sustain itself because it appears to run from nowhere to nowhere for the average person. ' Nuff said   Ginny

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Robert Milligan 
  To: * GREN 
  Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 1:18 PM
  Subject: Re: [All] Fwd: Re: CHANGE OF VENUE GREN MEETING -Regional WaterlooLight Rail Transit - January 18

  Hi All,

  Norah has stated a ramification/effect that our Rapid Transit efforts will have beyond Waterloo Region, "What is happening to transit in your area will undoubtedly set a precedent for good or ill that will affect Guelph and area."

  I would take that further and say that because we are seen by many in Canada and beyond as an innovation leader, this makes our very significant projects an expected innovative exemplar -- especially for medium-sized urban areas. So, if we do not "get rapid transit right", then many other communities will suffer -- along with our reputation for innovative leadership. This also means also that Waterloo Region -- with its $1B+ LRT albatross always out front -- could become an embarrassing community to live and invest in.

  Too much is at stake with our Rapid Transit project to leave all attempted LRT Plan improvements virtually exclusively to the Region's engineering staff project overseers who both lack specialized academic backgrounds in the design of integrated bus/LRT systems and who by nature are (from my many discussions with them) very innovation-averse.

  As I have in-effect cautioned both CAO Mike Murray and Chair Ken Seiling, this is a disaster waiting to happen. As Ken might put it if he saw the Light, just a slight tinkering with the current grossly inadequate LRT Plan will DOOM us !!!!!!!

  However, as I have stated previously, if the Region used a more effective form of public involvement at least, had a better analysis of community needs for this project (e.g. commuter congestion de-jamming, SMART innovative intensification, ...), etc., then very innovative and proven Rapid Transit IDEAS are more likely be generated and appropriately included.

  But it appears that Mike & Ken continue to have unwavering confidence in their (engineer-dominant) "Titanic" RTI team -- despite many, many electors and most municipal candidates saying that they do not support the current LRT Plan. Mike & Ken must wake up to the reality of a likely LRT failure if the current LRT system design is not significantly changed!!

  Robert

  On 12-Jan-11, at 10:54 AM, Norah & Richard wrote:

    -------- Original Message --------Subject: Re: [All] CHANGE OF VENUE GREN MEETING - Regional WaterlooLight Rail Transit - January 18 
          Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 10:54:02 -0500 
          From: Norah & Richard <nrchaloner at hotmail.com> 
          To: jandonrob at golden.net 

    Thank you Susan and Don,  What is happening to transit in your area will undoubtedly set a precedent for good or ill that will affect Guelph and area. We drag along after others have done spade work. So the network exists whether we agree on how well it works or not. Thanks to all for keeping the dialogue going and sharing so much information on many issues ( Lulu take a bow) since it fuels the enviro groups in our area.   Can't get to the next couple of meetings but will keep in touch.
      Norah 

    On 11/01/2011 4:24 PM, jandonrob at golden.net wrote:
      Hello Susan
        Your "two bits" are worth a lot more than that. You have expressed the fundamental concept of GREN in concise clear terms. If we are to make informed decisions and commitments, we need information. That seemed to be the purpose of this upcoming meeting from the outset.
        Debate is more appropriate when there is a motion on the floor, and a decision must be made.
        I regret that once again I have a scheduling conflict and will not be able to attend the meeting, but I will await the minutes and follow the outcome closely.
        Your ability to come to the point clearly and directly, and then to express it succinctly, is admirable. Good work.
        Regards
                                              Don Roberts

       ----- Original Message -----
        From: Susan Koswan
        To: 'gren'
        Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 9:12 AM
        Subject: Re: [All] CHANGE OF VENUE GREN MEETING - Regional WaterlooLight Rail Transit - January 18

        What we do with public transportation affects us all in terms of reducing air pollution, affecting climate change, what the Region looks like in 20, 30 years,  etc. All GREN members do not work on the same issues which, to me, is the true nature of a network. GREN members work on their particular area of interest. GREN exists to share our experiences and support each other. Networks fall apart when the infighting begins. What’s that line from Pogo – I have seen the enemy and it is us – or something like that. Just because we disagree doesn’t mean we need to change the goals we set for ourselves.

        And Randy, you have brought the issue of expanding our network many times, but I have yet to see a plan from you or anyone who is willing to take this on.

        My 2 bits.
        Susan K

        From: randybmclean at rogers.com [mailto:randybmclean at rogers.com] 
        Sent: January-11-11 9:02 AM
        To: 'Susan Koswan'; 'gren'
        Subject: RE: [All] CHANGE OF VENUE GREN MEETING - Regional Waterloo Light Rail Transit - January 18

        Susan:

        If GREN’s mission statement is truly what you say then why are we focusing on the LRT for KW and perhaps Cambridge.  The Grand covers a meandering distance from north of Shelborne to Port Maitland.  GREN has a long way to go before it can call itself a NETWORK.

        How can I, or anyone outside KW, expect to get involved or even see a connection between what GREN’s mission statement is  “That means finding  common ground, common goals for the improvement of the environment in the Grand River watershed” and the LRT for Kitchener/Waterloo?

        The Grand River watershed interacts with 11 counties and 1 Aboriginal Nation area.  In the interest of being fair why not investigate topics that are common to everyone in the watershed and not just a few urbanites?

        Randy

        Ps I understand where Robert is coming from.

        From: all-bounces at gren.ca [mailto:all-bounces at gren.ca] On Behalf Of Susan Koswan
        Sent: January-11-11 8:06 AM
        To: 'gren'
        Subject: Re: [All] CHANGE OF VENUE GREN MEETING - Regional Waterloo Light Rail Transit - January 18

        Cool the vitriol, Robert and don’t jump to any conclusions,

        GREN’s “mission” is to work with like-minded groups and individuals – NETWORK, remember? That means finding  common ground, common goals for the improvement of the environment in the Grand River watershed. We know how much work and research you have invested into the LRT and value the commitment you’ve made, but you know that the end product will not include all the cutting edge stuff. The Region will go with what has proven reliable and successful and there will be compromises.

        No one is stepping on your democratic toes here – I merely forwarded Tim’s suggestion for the agenda. Whether the questions are written or oral, there will be ample time for discussion. Our goal is to pick Jeff Casello’s brain for why he thinks an LRT is the best option, what he thinks we should do as a group to move this issue forward and to dispel any misinformation about the project. It is NOT to spend the time debating issues of democracy.

        Susan K  

        From: Robert Milligan [mailto:mill at continuum.org] 
        Sent: January-10-11 11:28 PM
        To: Susan Koswan
        Cc: 'gren'
        Subject: Re: [All] CHANGE OF VENUE GREN MEETING - Regional Waterloo Light Rail Transit - January 18

        I strongly disagree with the concept of written questions because it is a very undemocratic form of hunman interaction. New meeting-processes should never be introduced unless the whole group is consulted!

        Why is it being done? Does the professor feel insecure?

        Your efficiency rationale, "this will cut unnecessary time out of the structured QA session", takes human expression out the communication. It's something like a prayer to a high & mighty God who may or may not answer. Although with such a prayer you have a choice to speak it or silently communicate.

        I see no place for the displacement of spoken questions at any valid public meeting!

        On second thought, maybe all our meetings could use this approach in which we submit questions to John and he decides which ones will be answered and who he will permit to answer them. Certainly 30 minute meetings will save us all a lot of time.

        Our society needs more democracy in our meetings, not less!!!

        Robert

        PS: Are GRENERS aware that TriTAG -- until Mollison made some very impractical suggestions -- has been reluctant to attempt to improve the Region's RTI
        Plan? They said it was counter-productive.

        On 10-Jan-11, at 10:47 PM, Susan Koswan wrote:

        Hi GRENers,

        CHANGE OF VENUE FOR JAN. 18 GREN MEETING RE LRT

        When we contacted TriTAG (pro-LRT) to tell them about our meeting, they had already scheduled theirs for the same night. Since they could not change their location, we agreed to combine our meetings and join them at Whole-Lot-A-Gelata on King St located at 120 King St. S. Waterloo 519-884-5760 http://www.wholelotagelata.com/index.html

        Agenda as follows:

        7:30-7:40 introduction: information about initiatives, how to sign up, speaker
        7:40-8:10 presentation by Mr. J. Casello
        8:10-8:30 written questions delivered by moderator (this will cut unnecessary time out of the structured QA session; I can print forms)
        8:30-8:40 closing: recommended actions, information about recurring meetings for GREN and TriTAG
        8:40-9:00 open discussion and opportunities to mingle

        Susan K
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