[All] Part II GRCA watershed forum

Mon Sep 21 11:15:27 EDT 2009

Hi
We are on the same page.
Waste water is still waste water wherever it comes from.
There is some discussion about the merits of smaller pig operations (or
for that matter, any livestock operation)  that respect your comment
about large treatment plants vs the smaller systems.
I believe pigs also fit the lb for lb model regarding waste similar to
the cow  example I provided , and your model.  A market hog is about the
same weight as a human, so one hog produces as much waste as one human (
based on the weight of the feces and urine). But once again the pig
doesn't shower or wash clothes. ( well maybe Arnold Ziphel does :) ).
The one vote against hogs is the excess phosphorous in their waste.Pigs
have relatively poor digestion of phosphorous so their ration has 10X
the amount of P than what they actually need. The good news is that the
latest research work is about breeding pigs that digest more
efficiently. (But this touches on gene manipulation that of course
raises other questions, for another time).
I don't feel "demonized"  as a farmer  or a cow (or pig,if I was) farmer.
We are all on the same page, I just want it to be the same writing.
In regards to why farmers have large operations (that are going broke)
let me add this.
It's all about the supply chain and also our familiarity with low food
prices. I know "low prices" doesn't sit well when you shop, but in fact
our prices in Canada are about 10% of our average income when the rest
of the world starts at 25% of that countries average income.
The point is that consumers have to yell "down' the supply chain and be
willing to pay more for food if they want more than just even cheaper
generic food. The farmer has to be able to "hear" that the market is
changing to food with a "brand" appeal (local, or organic, or  "humane",
or ,,,)
I believe we are getting there, but studies have shown that only 20% of
the population has the presence of mind and/or the financial resources
to buy a brand. And even then, grocery store studies have shown that
consumers on the way in the store will switch their purchases when they
get to the checkout counter.
Those big operations closing down is not the fault of the farmer. Our
present market is about tonnage, not about all the other factors.
js

Randy B. McLean wrote:
> Jeff:
>
> In defence of the cow I have little.  I do not drink a lot of milk and 
> limit my red meat intake, same with pork.  I would rather bath in 
> water used by cows than bath in water used by humans in an 
> industrialized urban setting.
>
> If it is just primitive human waste then it will only contain C, N, P, 
> S, O, H, K, and a few other micro-nutrients and pathogens; now that 
> hurts.  A cow's waste will contain the same with some gram positives.  
> For the total mass?...then that depends on the critter.  A 120 lb. 
> women or a 220 lb man. A full size lactating bovine or a heifer.  The 
> weight of a million cow's waste divided by one million compared to the 
> same numbers for humans.
>
> Regardless neither should be allowed to defecate into a body of water. 
> Man's arrogance continues as we use water to wash away our waste and 
> transport it out of site.  Europe and some parts of the US are 
> beginning to smarten up as they stop building giant collections 
> systems and giant treatment plants with small local, easy to control, 
> plants that make a high polished effluent that can go back into the 
> eco-system.  Rain water is kept out of giant collectors and all waste 
> is treated with the tight system.  No storm retention ponds, no costly 
> mega structures just a few thousand users in a small pipe tight system 
> using their own treatment facility.  User pay and water consumption is 
> minimal.  Not perfect but a good start.
>
> No one is demonizing the cow or the farmer (but those sow operations 
> that have an equivalent of 1/2 million people in waste and are now 
> going backrupt or having to cull their 'herd' do not sit high on my 
> list when it comes to the respected farmer).  The point is we all have 
> to eat and if I know you, and I think I do, we are all on the same side.
>
> Cheers
> Randy
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "jeff stager" <shadynook at golden.net>
> To: "Louisette Lanteigne" <butterflybluelu at rogers.com>
> Cc: <all at gren.ca>
> Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 12:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [All] Part II GRCA watershed forum
>
>
>> Hi
>> I'm glad to read your notes from the forum. Thank you.
>> Just reading over the part about the waste from 1 cow equaling the 
>> waste from 10 people.
>> I believe its one cow plus a calf up to 3 months old. And it is true 
>> that human waste is 1/10 of the waste of that animal unit because the 
>> gross live weight of a human is also 1/10 of the gross live weight of 
>> the same animal unit.
>> The problem is that their is no accounting for the waste produced by 
>> humans for washing clothes, bathing. cooking, washing the car, lawn 
>> watering,,, and all those other things people do and animals don't. 
>> That's because the metric you quoted is limited to only the weight of 
>> the feces and urine, and not to the all the wastes that humans create 
>> and animals do not.
>> You can make your own estimate of how much water you use above and 
>> beyond what is needed regarding feces and urine production.
>> It is erroneous to suggest that one cow animal unit creates the same 
>> amount of waste as 10 people if one doesn't consider the weights of 
>> all the wastes produced.
>> jeff stager
>>
>> Louisette Lanteigne wrote:
>>> Hi folks
>>>  Part II of the Grand River Watershed Forum minutes are in the 
>>> attachment. It is the last page of the summery I've drafted.
>>>  For the other GREN members who were at the meeting, feel free to 
>>> email me at butterflybluelu at rogers.com 
>>> <mailto:butterflybluelu at rogers.com> to give me the missing bits and 
>>> I can tuck them in there to provide a revised copy at the next GREN 
>>> meeting.
>>>  The GRCA will be posting the power point presentations as well as 
>>> /The Grand/: Fall 2009 edition on the GRCA's official website in the 
>>> near future. /The Grand/ elaborates further on the topics discussed 
>>> by GRCA staff during the forum and is well worth the read. It will 
>>> also be delivered to area homes and if your out of the delivery 
>>> range, a quick visit to the conservation authority should provide 
>>> you with a hard copy.
>>>  To stay on top of Issues affecting the Great Lakes, particularly in 
>>> regards to water diversions issue be sure to book mark this link: 
>>> http://www.greatlakeswaterwars.com/
>>>  To all my muslim friends Eid Mubarak! To my Jewish friends, Rosh 
>>> Hashanah. May your year be the sweetest one yet.
>>>  Have a good one folks.
>>>  Lulu :0)
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
>>>
>>>
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>>
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